一個是意大利建筑與城市研究院教授

一個是中國城市更新與文化復興專家

這是一次古建筑保護與技術的分享

更是一次中外建筑文化保育的碰撞

【分享】

6月28日，意大利米蘭理工大學建筑與城市學院建筑遺產保護專業教授，建筑與景觀遺產保護、木構建筑保護診斷專家Francesco Augelli到訪永信和瑞，與設計總監楊建覺及設計團隊成員進行了一場有高度、有深度、更有細節的學術對話。

雙方圍繞意大利古建筑保護經驗、當下中國古建筑保護面臨的問題、文化遺存的保育與活化辦法，進行了深度交流。大家十分認可意大利人對待古建筑保護的真誠態度和嚴謹技術，期待雙方未來有合作的機會。

Francesco Augelli

【對話】

楊建覺：古建筑的保護與研究，從信息采集角度而言，更看重社會層面還是技術層面？

JJ?Yang: Regarding the preservation and research of historic buildings, are the social or technical aspects more important in information collection?

Francesco Augelli：關于我的專業和研究經驗，我首先會考慮項目的特性。如果項目側重于城市尺度，比如一個歷史名城的保護和管理類的大型項目，我的方法將是從歷史研究開始，其次是社會研究，它包括居住者的特點（數量、年齡、性別、職業等），SWOT分析，習慣、風俗、生活方式、需求和其他社會方面。

如果該城市保護項目也將側重于重要的歷史建筑層面，或者客戶的要求是關于歷史建筑的保護和再利用設計，在這種情況下，它將使用歷史建筑保護的方法直接把側重點更多地轉換到技術層面，開始形成深入的了解（歷史和現狀研究），圖繪和信息收集，最終以這些為基礎，進入保護和適應性再利用設計階段。

Francesco?Augelli: Regarding my professional and research experience, I consider the characteristics of the requested project. If the project is focused on the urban scale, similar to a large project like the conservation and management of a historical town, my approach would be to start with historical knowledge, to the social research, including characteristics of the inhabitants (number, age, gender, occupations, and so on), the SWOT analysis, habits, customs, lifestyles, needs and other social aspects.

If we suppose the urban conservation will also be then focused on important historical buildings or the request of the client is about a historical building preservation and reuse design, in that case, it will be directed to switch to the technical level of preservation, using the methodology of historical architecture conservation starting to form the in-depth knowledge (historical and of the current condition), mapping and information collection and finally, based on them, to the preservation and adaptive reuse project.

楊建覺：您眼中，當下中國的古城、古鎮、古村、古建筑物的保護與復興處于什么水平？存在哪些需要特別留神的地方？

JJ Yang: What is, in your opinion, the current level of preservation and renewal of historic towns and buildings in China? What are the issues that need to pay more attention to?

Francesco Augelli：我曾多次到過湖南。就目前而言，湖南有些地方對歷史建筑的干預需要多尊重歷史文化遺產的真實性。在修復過程中，建筑所呈現的不同時期的原始歷史痕跡都被抹去，人們把建筑翻新得煥然一新。經常有歷史建筑被拆除或完全改變，抑或新做的假古董取代了原來的外觀，而不尊重歷史建筑真實性的時間因素。

意大利人一直堅持歷史建筑的真實性、兼容性、可識別性和最小的干預原則，以消除衰變的成因，修復建筑的殘損，而不是覆蓋或取代歷史建筑的歷史痕跡，做一些沒有必要的改變。自上個世紀七十年代以來，意大利建立了一個相對完整的歷史建筑保護理論和方法體系，它匯集了各行各業的專業人士都來參與到這樣一個復雜的項目（保護）中。

我希望在未來，中國甚至湖南會有類似的關于歷史建筑的認知、技術、科學方法來保護，包括那些文革時期的建筑，即使是現代的，也是中國和中國人民偉大歷史的重要組成部分。

Francesco Augelli: I have visited Hunan many times. For the moment, there are some places in Hunan where too frequently, the intervention in historical buildings needs to respect the authenticity of cultural relics. In the restoration, the original historical traces of the different periods are all wiped out, refurbishing the building to look brand new. Frequently the historic buildings are demolished or completely changed, or newly made fake antiques replace the original appearance without respecting the time element of historical buildings authenticity.

The Italians have always insisted on authenticity, compatibility, recognizability and minimal intervention to remove the causes of deterioration and fix the damages to the building rather than covering or replacing the compatible historical traces of the historic buildings with no necessary changes. Since the Seventies, Italy has established a relatively complete theoretical and methodological system for the conservation of historical buildings with the participation of all walks of the competencies involved in such a complex project (preservation).

I hope that in the next future, also China and Hunan will have a similar methodological approach to knowledge and technical and scientific approach to the historical buildings, including also the ones of the Cultural Revolution that are important, even if modern, parts of the great history of China and Chinese People.

楊建覺：中國古建筑種類繁多、規模龐大、分布廣泛，如何對這些古建筑進行保護的同時進行活化再利用，使其產生更高的社會與經濟價值？而這種價值又能更好地促進古建筑保護。也許這是個難題。

JJ Yang: Chinese historical buildings are diverse, large in scale and widely distributed. How can these historical buildings be conserved and,?at the same time,?adaptively reused so that they can generate a higher social and economic value? And this value can better promote the conservation of historic?buildings. This may be?a complex?problem.

Francesco Augelli：我在意大利教我的學生的如何平衡各利益相關者的需求。例如，如果我們修復一座寺廟，那么它的功能將保持為一座寺廟，即使最終將為游客增加必要的服務。但如果它是一個歷史悠久的住宅建筑，它也將被認為是必要的補充。另外，在這種情況下，最基本的一點是，歷史建筑的再利用應該適當地適應該建筑的歷史價值，而不是相反。當然，應該考慮現代化和更新服務。例如，在修復歷史上的住宅時，廁所、廚房、電力、空調、保溫等等都會被認為是適當匹配的。

我們教誨的主題是，我們必須尊重真實性（不同于 "原始 "的含義），尊重歷史建筑的價值，同樣要平衡當代日常生活的功能需求。數據分析和需求調研是通過利益相關者的參與和同意來完成的。利益相關者包括了國家機關、地州市政府、業主/客戶、開發商、設計公司、建筑商和投資者，他們對數據進行分析，并得出結論和植入功能的建議。

Francesco Augelli: What I teach my students in Italy is how to balance the needs of the stakeholders. For example, if we restore a temple, then its functions will remain as a temple even if will be eventually necessary additions of services for the visitors. But if it is a historical residential building, it will also be considered the essential additions. Also, in this case, the most fundamental point is that the reuse of a historical building should be appropriately adapted to the historical value of the building and not the contrary. Of course, modernization and updating of services should be considered. For example, when restoring a historical residential house, the toilets, kitchen, electricity, conditioning, insulation and so on will be regarded as properly compatible.

The theme of our teachings is that we must respect authenticity (different from the meaning of "original"), the value of historic buildings, and equally balance the functional needs of contemporary daily life. The data analysis and needs are done by going through the involvement and agreement of the stakeholders, which covers the government, municipality, the owner/client, the developer, the design firm, the builder, and the investor, which analyses the data, and draws conclusions and implants the functions proposals.

任子健：剛才教授提到在建筑保護工作中，意大利和中國過去對待木結構的保護方法有很大差異，具體體現在哪些方面？現在對木結構的理解正在逐步靠攏，又具體表現在哪些方面？

Ren Zijian:The professor also mentioned significant differences between the Italian and Chinese approaches to wood structures in preserving buildings in the past. In what aspects? Nowadays, the understanding of wood structure is gradually approaching, and in what aspects?

Francesco Augelli：這是個好問題。我只了解湖南的情況，而不是整個中國的情況。當我2009年來到湖南時，我看到當地對歷史建筑的處理方法是一旦發現它們被破壞，就用新的來代替，而且他們還是在沒有科學診斷的情況下就這樣做。在意大利，方法是不同的。像醫生或偵探一樣，我們一步一步地進行診斷，一般來說，是對歷史建筑的間接和直接的了解。 在建筑現狀調研的工作過程中，當我們在在尋找線索的基礎上進行適當的調查后，我們可以使用儀器來獲取定性和定量的數據，再通過專家的正確理解和解釋，允許我們對木質結構（也包括其他材料）進行診斷，并以正確的療法進行治療。例如，如果存在昆蟲或霉菌，我們會給它充分的治療并保護木材。所以在最初，我們需要正確地確定哪些地方是不可逆轉的損壞，不能治療，必須以兼容和可逆的方式來更換。

正如我以前說過的，中國處理木結構的方法是漫無邊際地直接拆除舊構件或整個建筑，然后用新的構件取代它們。而目前的做法是，大家更傾向于只拆除老化的部分，以及只替換無法恢復的部分。但是即便如此也仍然存在問題，那就是如今負責施工的工人們是沒有得到充分的培訓的。畢竟，他們只是普通的建筑工人。從施工質量成果的角度來看，木匠應該在基于最小干預原則的維修中做得更好。

Francesco Augelli: That's a good question. I know the situation in Hunan, not the whole of China. When I came to Hunan in 2009, the approach to historic buildings was to replace them with new ones when they were damaged, and they did this without a scientific diagnosis that permitted them to say if it was recoverable or not. In Italy, the approach is different. Like doctors or detectives, we perform the diagnosis step by step and, in general, the indirect and direct knowledge of the historic building. In the work process of the current condition of the building, after the proper investigation based on the searching of clues, we can use instruments to achieve qualitative and quantitative data that, properly understood and interpreted by experts, permit us to diagnose the wood structure (but also other materials) and treat it with the right therapy. For example, if insects or fungi exist, we will adequately treat and protect the timbers. First of all, we need to determine correctly which areas are irreversibly damaged, cannot be treated, and must be replaced in a compatible and reversible way.

As I said before, the Chinese approach to wooden structures was diffusely to remove the old elements or the whole building directly and replaces them with new ones. The current approach is, more and more, to remove only the deteriorated part to replace just the unrecoverable portions. But there are still problems because the workers are too frequently not trained adequately. After all, they are ordinary building workers. Carpenters should do a better job from a quality result point of view in the minimal intervention repairs.

意大利米蘭理工大學教授Francesco Augelli助理何昳慧、湖南大學建筑與規劃學院謝菲教授、永信和瑞建筑設計院長羅朝陽，城鄉規劃院長楊一美、副院長康承軍、總工程師任子健、副總建筑師李愿參加了對話。

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